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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 8:32 am    Post subject: ... Reply with quote

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enemigo



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 10:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seriously?

So southern plantation owners would have just sold the slaves, taken the money and started paying fair wages for workers to tend their fields?
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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2011 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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mrpink



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enemigo wrote:
Seriously?

So southern plantation owners would have just sold the slaves, taken the money and started paying fair wages for workers to tend their fields?


the only alternative was war?
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mrpink



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enemigo wrote:
Seriously?

So southern plantation owners would have just sold the slaves, taken the money and started paying fair wages for workers to tend their fields?


did the war get them to start paying fair wages?
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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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enemigo



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 12:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it is extremely naive to believe that the south could simply be bought off. There was far, far more at play than the monetary amount invested in a given slave. Slavery was not merely an economic institution. It was a cultural institution.

About 1/3 of the population in the southern states were black. In the northern states, only 1% of the population was black. There was massive struggle not just against economic loss, but against the concept of racial equality. Further, there was the political aspect, where slave owners had inflated political power due to the number of slaves they owned.

-

As early as 1849, Lincoln advocated compensating slave owners to give up their "property." Nobody was interested. What you're suggesting was actually tried multiple times in Delaware, to no avail. In 1847, Delaware tried to pass a bill for compensated emancipation. It passed the house, but couldn't pass the Senate.

Right after the Cival War began, Lincoln tried this scheme again. In March of 1862, Lincoln proposed buying off the slave-holding border states (where slavery wasn't as deeply entrenched... Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missourti and DC ) to get them to agree to a gradual emancipation, in hopes to end the war sooner by weakening the South. Here was his argument: "How much better for you and for your people to take the step which at once shortens the war and secures substantial compensation for that which is sure to be wholly lost in any other event! ... How much better to do it while we can, lest the war ere long render us pecuniarily unable to do it!"

Guess what... the South wasn't interested.


(Washington DC eventually went along with compensated emancipation... nobody else was interested though)
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enemigo



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 1:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mrpink wrote:
enemigo wrote:
Seriously?

So southern plantation owners would have just sold the slaves, taken the money and started paying fair wages for workers to tend their fields?


did the war get them to start paying fair wages?

I assume it did... I mean, they didn't have to deal with a minimum wage or child labor laws back then so clearly the market would have provided them with a perfectly fair wage and they would have been overjoyed to pay the former slaves that fair wage to do what they didn't have to pay them for before.
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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....

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mrpink



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 1683
Location: hotlanta

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enemigo wrote:
I think it is extremely naive to believe that the south could simply be bought off. There was far, far more at play than the monetary amount invested in a given slave. Slavery was not merely an economic institution. It was a cultural institution.

About 1/3 of the population in the southern states were black. In the northern states, only 1% of the population was black. There was massive struggle not just against economic loss, but against the concept of racial equality. Further, there was the political aspect, where slave owners had inflated political power due to the number of slaves they owned.

-

As early as 1849, Lincoln advocated compensating slave owners to give up their "property." Nobody was interested. What you're suggesting was actually tried multiple times in Delaware, to no avail. In 1847, Delaware tried to pass a bill for compensated emancipation. It passed the house, but couldn't pass the Senate.

Right after the Cival War began, Lincoln tried this scheme again. In March of 1862, Lincoln proposed buying off the slave-holding border states (where slavery wasn't as deeply entrenched... Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, Missourti and DC ) to get them to agree to a gradual emancipation, in hopes to end the war sooner by weakening the South. Here was his argument: "How much better for you and for your people to take the step which at once shortens the war and secures substantial compensation for that which is sure to be wholly lost in any other event! ... How much better to do it while we can, lest the war ere long render us pecuniarily unable to do it!"

Guess what... the South wasn't interested.


(Washington DC eventually went along with compensated emancipation... nobody else was interested though)


first and foremost, i have consistently proven myself to be quite naive:wink:

i dont think "the" solution was to buy off the southern states. i just also dont think "the" solution was war.

clearly the precedent had been set for attempting to emancipate the slaves financially; but clearly it was not going to be easy. there are other potential methods to resolving the issue. none would be easy. none would be quick or foolproof.

these might be difficult numbers to crunch, but what if the money proposed to be spend buying the slaves, we instead spent buying cotton or tobacco or whatever from a different source? or not at all? what if tobacco had been outlawed in northern states? this may not have worked, but it wouldnt have cost hundreds of thousands of lives.

i am certainly too naive and ignorant to be able to come up with "the" solution lincoln or america or humanity should have come up with to deal with the blight of slavery. but i'm quite suspicious of the one that included the death of hundreds of thousands...

as you said, it was not merely an economic issue though, it was cultural. why couldnt we have simply distanced ourselves from that culture and not dealt with them economically? that would have been tough...tougher than war?

do you think we're obliged to go make every culture be the way we want it? if we cant do it trough trade and negotiation, then War!

politicians dont like to talk about the economic reasons we're mixed up in wars all over the world, so they talk about the cultural issues of those countries. but we sure arent sending troops to end slavery in sudan.

how did england and india and france and etc deal with the economic and cultural issues of ending slavery? how effective was it? how long did it take?

how well did our civil war deal with the economic and cultural issues of ending slavery?

i'm suspicious of a lot of what and how we're taught things growing up. i'm at least partly playing devil's advocate here. it may be that war was needed right then with out better planning or equipping or further negotiations or whatever else. but ron paul has spurred me to look into it further. and it's certainly not the first time i've had to re-evaluate the history fed to me as i was growing up...

i remember the civil war being a central part of history classes and memorizing all sorts of dates and battlefields and generals. i wish i had the wherewithal to pose the questions then that i wonder about now...
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mrpink



Joined: 19 Mar 2003
Posts: 1683
Location: hotlanta

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

enemigo wrote:
mrpink wrote:
enemigo wrote:
Seriously?

So southern plantation owners would have just sold the slaves, taken the money and started paying fair wages for workers to tend their fields?


did the war get them to start paying fair wages?

I assume it did... I mean, they didn't have to deal with a minimum wage or child labor laws back then so clearly the market would have provided them with a perfectly fair wage and they would have been overjoyed to pay the former slaves that fair wage to do what they didn't have to pay them for before.


i'm glad that the political system we have now ensures everyone perfectly fair wages...
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shlee



Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Sat Jun 11, 2011 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.....

Last edited by shlee on Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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wangyin



Joined: 22 Jul 2011
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

many slaves experienced been happy, of course happy, to stay on their plantations exact after the EP as well as a a good offer much more diplomatic resolution could've meant a whole great offer much less racial tension, passing away and wiping away from the culture. !!!







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Mr Sweet



Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1587

PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Exactly, so we all agree with Michelle Bachman, Rick Santorum, and the Spam Bot, Slavery was a *good* thing.....
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